My new favorite YouTube channel is Matthewmatosis, a collection of in-depth game reviews and commentary. In-depth means really in-depth–30+ minutes in most of the videos. One of the most recent is on Pac-Man and scoring, which explores the phenomenon of the “perfect score” in Pac-Man: something made possible by the fact that a) the game is deterministic (the ghosts’ behavior is predictable and reliable), and b) the game has a finite number of a levels (not by design–but an integer overflow enforces this).
So for Pac-Man, there really is just a perfect score to attain, and the leaderboard shifted to who could do it the fastest. But there is actually a fastest-possible time as well, if you execute everything perfectly. So now it’s just an account of people who can attain the fastest time to the highest score.
Matthewmatosis offers a solution in the form of two missing ingredients: randomness, and unlimited time. They are both required, however, because random game elements (such as Tetris or a roguelike) combined with limited time means that top scorers are mostly at the mercy of the random number generator for a good score. And unlimited time without randomness turns the game into an endurance test, rather than a skill test.
Here’s a capture from the video which summarizes the situation:
I wanted to see how DCSS handles scoring. It’s got the random thing, and it seems to be endless (some of the later dungeon branches are endlessly explorable), but since it’s an RPG, and you get stronger as the game progresses, wouldn’t you just eventually become unkillable, and be able to rack up points forever?
They have a really good solution to this, which is to divide your score by the number of turns you take. Your hours of endgame mob stomping are going to end up being a net negative under this scheme. It also makes it virtually impossible to attain a perfect score, because you’re constantly balancing how much time to spend with each fight.
In some sense, this makes the scoring in DCSS fall into the “limit” category, so randomness does have an influence. But the skill required to play swiftly and make the best decisions given the random elements you’re dealt means top tier players will consistently get high scores.
I’m still undecided about scoring, leaderboards, and game length in Soulcaster 3. But I would like there to be some sort of system to see measured improvement between runs, even just for a single player. It’s not very encouraging to see you ranked 304,934th in North America, but each new personal record broken could be encouragement enough to give it another run.
Yikes! I could have sworn I signed up for e-mail updates when you post. Oooh! The quest to reveal the Shadowcaster’s lair by destroying six beasts? The intense training searching for and leading up to entering his lair? Yes! I am so excited! I read through the whole blog these past few days.
Since you are making your roguelike game out of rooms, and if you are carrying over your EG2 branching map system, different areas could have sets of pre-made rooms with different objectives! There could be usable-item based puzzles, puzzles based off hints bought from certain shops! A super item for any one character made by putting together all of the character’s best items!
When it comes to boosting characters after placement (or uable items), could the Soulcaster affect the character/object he is facing with the usable item eqiupped? On endlessness, what if the character will reach a point where he can exit a floor safely at any time with the items and cash from the main area or continue at a risk of losing a percentage of everything they earned/all that they earned after the end of the main level. When continuing, they could only rewarded with cash after clearing an increasing number of rooms with a higher number/class of enemies, this way there will never be a point where there is no reward for continuing, as opposed to a lowering percentage of cash!
This would mean that the character would spawn near the blocked off entrance to (maybe) the predetermined world maze, then clear the floor to open the way! From the hostile world maze, players could replay a level with a score instead of cash to help them on their main quest, go on to the next area, enter the boss rush after completing the main game, or enter a mode that leads them through each of the areas in one go (similarly to Crypt of the Necrodancer)!
Hey, great to see someone so excited for this title! It’s still really early, so I am just getting started with the whole blogging thing, hoping to do much more of the development out in the open than I have in the past.
The branching map system from EG2 will be brought over in some modified form: my plan is to have it work the same way, without any circular paths to the same room (though shortcuts can open up to create circles). I’m not sure if there will be a hub world–more likely each region will connect to one or more other regions.
I’m undecided on item-based puzzles (Zelda style). One huge complication in a procedural world is that you have to guarantee that the player has access to the required item prior to the puzzle room. What I’ll likely have are optional one-off rooms that are accessed using special items. What you’re saying about combining summon upgrades into a super weapon is a really cool concept–something I’ll probably try out much later in development.
I haven’t nailed down the summon blessing system just yet, but the next thing I am going to prototype is a system where you can optionally bless a summon with an upgrade right after placing him or her, before you move off the tile. Some blessings will affect the soul cost of the summon.
The world layout I am going for will allow the player to backtrack to past areas, so you aren’t moving from floor to floor (e.g. Binding of Isaac). In terms of permanently losing opportunities, I plan to have small instance rooms that disappear if you leave the room, and are very challenging. I don’t think the world will be endlessly explorable–you will reach a point where you’ve reached every room in the map. There should be lots of late game content for players who want to get an epic score.
Still making great progress on the room generator, which I will have some updates on this week. Stay tuned.